Podcast Episode 16: Special Guest Bro. Benjamin Norrod – Pt.1

[00:00:00] Luis Urrego: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Ten Thousand Worlds podcast.

[00:00:02] Once again, my name is Luis, Urrego and I have such a privilege and an honor to have with me, my good friend and a brother that I’ve known already for a few years. And, uh, it was a matter of fact, we’ve gotten to work together, uh, as well in the ministry and it’s such a delight to have him here with me. His brother Benjamin Norrod brother Ben Norrod. Uh, from Tennessee. Uh, just if you could just greet the, uh, the listeners, brother Ben.

[00:00:29] Benjamin Norrod: [00:00:29] Yes. God bless every one of you. It’s nice to be here, brother Luis, thank you for your hospitality and, uh, sure appreciate your friendship through the years. I was thinking we met in 2003, so we have known each other a number of years now.

[00:00:43] Luis Urrego: [00:00:43] Yeah, absolutely. I think it, yeah, it was around somewhere around that time. And, uh. We, uh, we, we had made plans that earlier that, uh, or sometime in that  there in that time to, to travel together, you know, to do some mission work together, but it [00:01:00] never came to fruition.

[00:01:01] Benjamin Norrod: [00:01:01] Yeah. Yeah, that’s true. Yeah. We’ve been trying at it for about 16 years now, and I think, I think we’re getting closer.

[00:01:10] Luis Urrego: [00:01:10] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, it’s getting closer because, uh, we just, uh, back in July we were able to, um, I was able to interpret for brother Ben Norrod and meetings in Beaufort, South Carolina. So that’s about the, the, the closest that we’ve gotten to work together from the pulpit, eh? Yes. Ah, so maybe things are getting closer.

[00:01:29] Benjamin Norrod: [00:01:29] Yes. Yes. And what a wonderful experience it was. You, you’re, you’re fantastic. Translator, brother. I really appreciated your efforts.

[00:01:36] Luis Urrego: [00:01:36] Well, I appreciate it, brother Ben. So brother Ben, um, you are, um, Bro. Ben Has been married. He is married and, uh, I believe you have. Is it two daughters or…

[00:01:46] Benjamin Norrod: [00:01:46] Have three girls? Yeah, Elizabeth Grace, which is a 13 years old this October. Uh, my middle daughter is Annalise and she is 10 years old. This past may, um, and the same month my baby Jessica, [00:02:00] uh, just turned four years old. She was May the 21st, and the Annalise was May the fourth, just a couple of days after my sister’s birthday. Wow. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. Three girls…

[00:02:12] Luis Urrego: [00:02:12] Just seems like yesterday you, you had your first one

[00:02:15] Benjamin Norrod: [00:02:15] and it’s amazing. Yeah. It’s amazing. She’s a teenager. Yeah. Yeah. It’s, it’s, it’s, it’s unbelievable how quickly time has passed.

[00:02:23] Luis Urrego: [00:02:23] Yes, absolutely. And, and he’s married to sister Samantha, who is a precious sister, and, uh, uh, has a lovely voice, just like brother Ben does. Uh, they’re both very musically talented.

[00:02:35] Benjamin Norrod: [00:02:35] Thank you.

[00:02:36] Luis Urrego: [00:02:36] Um. And so, um, if, um, if brother Ben if you just want to start us off, uh, maybe how, how, um, how the Lord started dealing with your life and, uh, maybe we’ll get to a little bit of how you, how you met sister Samantha and a little bit of on those things and then continue from there.

[00:02:55] Benjamin Norrod: [00:02:55] Sure I’d be happy to. And, uh, once again, uh, greetings to everybody [00:03:00] listening to the podcast, I just want to say what an honor it is to be able to share my testimony with you. And, uh, I trust that the Lord will certainly bless you and, and what you hear, um. I was thinking, uh, prior to this podcast, I was thinking of, the deep does not Deep Calleth To but, the 20th, 20th Century Prophet where brother Branham says, “I was born in a little log cabin.” And, uh, I guess everybody follows the message. We always smile when we hear that remark, you know, on the, on the video. And, uh, I, I wish I could say I had maybe that outstanding of type of testimony. I, I, um. I wasn’t born in a log cabin, and I certainly didn’t have any angels or lights come into my room when I was born. But, uh, I was born in, uh, in a, just a little plain state in Ohio, uh, I was born in 1977. My mother and father came into the message from Apostolic in 19 and 68. And they, uh. They were [00:04:00] first introduced to the message through brother Billy Andrews, uh, who was stationed before his passing and Murfreesboro Tennessee’s buried there now in Murfreesboro had a church, all the Apostolic art for many, many years. And brother Anders was a world renown evangelist. I mean, just, just traveled all over the world. I think brother Andrews told me he’d been in 54, 55 nations, something like that, uh, with, uh, just preaching the gospel, uh, you know, try to lead people to the Lord Jesus. And he, uh, he met brother Branham in the 50s. And, uh, I do believe it was in some of his meetings and brother Andrew’s had quite an outstanding ministry and introducing brother Branham to, uh, the people of the world. I mean, just everywhere. Uh, my parents was in Dayton, Ohio. Along about 1967 brother Andrews come by with a brother Steve Peterson, who was a song leader and a tremendous voice [00:05:00] talent guitar player. Just that had a such an and touch on him. Uh, he could stroke one stroke on a guitar and everybody be crying. He just was tremendously anointed. Uh, they work together as a real powerhouse team for a number of years, and they come by Dayton Farmer’s Market. Uh, it was just kind of a, an open field like there in downtown Dayton or just outside of downtown Dayton. And then they set up a tent, 1967 and brother Andrew’s closed the meeting by saying that this year he was going to tell him just two things, that it wasn’t an Apple in the garden of Eden and God had done something in this generation and he said he wasn’t going to tell them until they returned next year. Well, in 1968. He returned back to Dayton Farmer’s Market back with brother Steve Peterson back with a tent. The episodics all came out in droves. And, um, he preached serpent’s seed and the coming of Elijah the prophet in the last day Brother Branham. And it was at that time that 200 people [00:06:00] roughly left the apostolic church. My parents been one, uh, some of those people that left. And so their entrance into the message was a, uh, kind of a bumpy, rough start because at the time there wasn’t many message, churches around and there in Ohio. We just had just a few little churches kinda hiding in the corners. Uh, brother Dowe, who you hear Bro. Branham speak about quite often, had ordered the work up in Lima. And then of course, you had some of the other churches kind of beginning to develop. And so, uh, by the time I come along in 1977, uh, there were several message churches established, but not really. Uh, there wasn’t a lot of real established truth then. The books were just beginning to circulate. People were still listening to reel to reels. Uh, and as it had not really grown to, uh, to a real, just, it wasn’t really often going in Ohio too much. Um, but then something began to happen along [00:07:00] about the eighties, where. The, the message really started taking off and we started getting a lot of good preachers coming through that had some revelation. And, uh, they really started building up the body of Christ in that area. And, um, there was, uh, toward the late eighties, 88, 89. There was a revival that struck the message. And during that particular time, the anointing was really, really high in Message churches. Evangelism was really high in Message churches, especially there in Ohio, we was a hot spot for a lot of great preachers and a lot of great meetings. Uh, Pearry Green held a debate with them, with a man that was debating whether Branham and the pillar of fire, uh, photographed out of the Houston debate there with Mr.  Best.

[00:07:42] And, uh, he held a, uh, debate with this, I think he was a Trinitarian man, and there was over a thousand people in the Dayton Convention Center there, uh, for this debate. So things by the late 80s really began to grow. And, um, I’d say [00:08:00] about 88, 89, I was coming up on 12 years old. Was when I first started, I began having some experiences with the Lord. Of course, I was coming to the age of accountability and all of this atmosphere was beginning to affect me because we would go to message churches, whereas. As a small boy, I wouldn’t really feel the presence of the Lord. I didn’t understand what was going on. Now we begin to go to church and we could feel the moving of the Holy spirit and we could feel the touch of the Holy ghost. Um, I remember on my way to my grandmother’s in Tennessee, we stopped by a little church in a place called Monticello, Kentucky, and there was this little unknown fella that had just hit the message a few years ago by the name of Donny Reagan. And I was sitting in the Pew about three quarters of the way back on the left side of the church. And, uh, that was the first time in a message church. I was about six or seven years old. It was the first time in a message church that I had felt the presence of the Lord. And, uh, that [00:09:00] really, really impacted me because. You know, to experience. That was something I couldn’t put in words. I couldn’t describe it. I couldn’t explain it. I just knew it was God and it stayed with me throughout the next several years. About 89 90 coming up into that time, uh, a movement among my, my age group of the youth group of my age, uh, really began to take off and there was really, really powerful moves of the Holy spirit taking place during, during that time period. 90, 91 God was, yes, sir.

[00:09:37] Luis Urrego: [00:09:37] Sorry to interrupt you. You were 12, 13 years old at this time?

[00:09:41] Benjamin Norrod: [00:09:41] Yes, sir. Yeah. Yes, sir. That’s right. Yes, sir. Yep, absolutely. Um, so that would’ve been, let’s see. I was, uh, received the Holy ghost and 91. I was 14, so it have been 89. I feel like as one, I think it was 89. When the Lord first, uh, really dealt with me about [00:10:00] salvation, uh, in 88 or 89, right in, through there. And of course, as a center, I realized I was a center and I, I was in a little church that, uh, you know, God was moving amongst the people there as well. And, and I went up to give my heart to the Lord and, and I got saved. But I never really received the Holy ghost until a couple of years later because quite frankly. Uh, like I said, there wasn’t a lot being taught in our churches at the time about these things, so we didn’t really understand it. Um, all those God had sent a prophet. We knew the message was right, but we didn’t know anything about what the message actually said. And not at that time, uh, with the brothers just kind of beginning to cycle through those churches. We, we really didn’t know too much about the doctrinal side of things. There was a lot of. You know, heated, you know, strongly excited debates going on about the Holy ghost and about new birth and all these things. And so there was a lot of stuff we didn’t understand. But when I give my heart to the Lord, um, [00:11:00] that would’ve been 89 when I was 12. Uh, that’s when this movement is about the time this movement began to really take off. And. In, uh, West Melton, Ohio in 1991, uh, at brother Mike Siebert’s youth camp, uh, used to be, uh, they’ve moved it since to Indiana, but it used to be stationed at this old hole in his camp ground, uh, was there for many, many years. If you, if you remember that, or if anybody listening might remember that camp meeting, they might remember. If they’re my age when brothers, Steve Shelley had come by and was preaching that particular meeting in June of 91 at that time, whether Shelly had just came into the message himself just a few years, I think, maybe a year or something before that camp meeting. And, um. He, he was, uh, he was preaching the Holy ghost and he was preaching deliverance and a lot of things that at the time and the message we hadn’t really,  wasn’t really here on those things too frequently in our churches. It was a lot of doctrine and revelation. And that was kind of the [00:12:00] emphasis during that time because folks were trying to figure things out. And here come this little preacher out of Pentecost, you know, with slicked back hair. And. Matching time, suspenders, preaching and having all our calls and trying to get people saved, you know? Yeah. Um, the night that he preached a message that really has been quite, quite notable for a lot of people in Ohio was the naughty preached four hours on a message called house of hell. And it was that that night the Holy spirit poured out in a very tremendous way. And there was many, many people I think over a hundred young people give their hearts to the Lord that night. Well, when folks started shouting and you know, praising the Lord and turning on, it scared me to death because I had never saw that growing up. I didn’t know what shouting looked like. I had no idea what it meant, and it really, really scared me. And, uh, I got up to run out of the building and my dad, who had been watching me, he caught me just outside the building and he was standing at his arms crossed and my, my [00:13:00] grandfather was Benny Albert, so he always called me Benny. He said, Benny, where you going, boy? I said, dad, that’s scares me so much. And my father said these words to me, he said, don’t run from it. Run to it. And the next morning is when brother Shelley had preached for what they call the little tabernacle, and I was just, it was the last time they had that age group in there. The next year they cut it off. I just happened to be just by the grace of God in the service that next morning and the little tabernacle for the younger kids. And brother Shelley preached a message called, Satan, you can have my coat but you can’t have me. It was talking about Joseph and Potiphar’s wife and I run out and left his coat in her hands. And you got to tell them stories about folks that never really, uh, give their heart to God and how they would have car wrecks and get in all kinds of different situations. And then the Lord would come to him and those places and save them and deliver me what I didn’t understand at all. But I knew what he was talking about. I wanted it [00:14:00] with all of my heart. When he had the altar call, I just stood. I don’t remember being convicted. I don’t remember being drawn. I don’t remember being under any kind of grief. I just knew I was just positive. Whatever’s going to happen next, I want it. And I remember standing my feet walking to the front, and as I stood on the altar up at the front, that’s when the Lord filled me with the Holy ghost. And I, I’ll tell you this as a little side part of this testimony that people always seem to enjoy, and I try not to leave this out and that this young man remembers this. I would love it if you’d ever contact me and remind me. But, uh, I was mean to this little boy the whole week of camp. I’d step on his foot and push him down and do all kinds of meanness to him. And, uh. I, at the time, I had, uh, quite, uh, quite a, quite a few complexes as a young kid. Uh, I, I just said build up a real resentment and, uh, [00:15:00] and just a meanness and a hatred in my heart. And I had such a bad hatred in my heart about people that I used to sit in church. And if somebody had done me wrong, I would spend the service thinking of the different ways that I wanted to hurt them. Or kill them. Wow. Uh, those things would course through my mind, and I remember having such a bitterness and I hatred. I really can’t explain to you why. I really don’t know. Why that was there. It just was, it was, it was birthed from a complex as, the only thing I know, and this 

[00:15:34] excuse me, but th this, um, of course this was your, you’re in your teenage years, so it was complexes, complexes towards other teenagers and hatred and bitterness towards other teenagers.

[00:15:46] Yeah.

[00:15:47] Luis Urrego: [00:15:47] Where you flipped, where you, where you picked on a lot.

[00:15:51] Benjamin Norrod: [00:15:51] Yeah, I was bullied. I was bullied because I, you know, there was, I had experiences in school that that was horrendous. I had a guy come at me with a knife one time and, [00:16:00] uh, I was, I was bullied pretty unmercifully in some cases. Um, yeah. And I think I was, there was a lot of confusion and, uh, by the least touching back on the climate of the message at the time.  but just not a real solid, we just didn’t have a good understanding as young people. We just didn’t know anything. Uh,

[00:16:23] Luis Urrego: [00:16:23] right. Because, yeah, I’m just, I’m just thinking brother ban, uh, sorry to interrupt

[00:16:28] Benjamin Norrod: [00:16:28] because,

[00:16:28] Luis Urrego: [00:16:28] no, no, please, please, please, please. Most people, I guess at the time, uh, they were, I guess, more concentrated on the F on the, maybe on the doctrinal parts of the message.

[00:16:39] Benjamin Norrod: [00:16:39] Yes.

[00:16:40] Luis Urrego: [00:16:40] And it wasn’t, it wasn’t a lot. Uh, and this one’s what’s been told to me, even from, from, uh, uh, uh, brothers from that lived at that time as well. There’s that, uh, not a lot of emphasis was given over to the young people. And, and, and, and family, uh, issues and family matters and things like [00:17:00] that.

[00:17:00] Benjamin Norrod: [00:17:00] That’s correct. We were told to believe brother was a prophet, to love brother Branam have confidence in brother Bram in the message. And then that’s about as far as it ever went. And then we were told to live. Right. And the holiness standards were so extreme back in those days. I mean, everything was going imagine, you know, and I mean, if you, if you went to a Chuck E cheese you were sending, you know, if you. Uh, you know, if you stand stood too long in the grocery store next to, you know, the Enquirer magazines, it was the devil. I mean, it was quite extreme times. It really, Oh, yeah,

[00:17:33] Luis Urrego: [00:17:33] yeah, yeah. So I can imagine, you know, you would have these complexes and these things would come into your life and you wouldn’t really know how to handle these things at the time.

[00:17:42] Benjamin Norrod: [00:17:42] That’s true. That’s true. So, you know, and, and that’s a great point because you illuminating that. I really never thought of it in that manner, but that, that actually answers really the questions that I had about that time in my life to really, I mean, thinking about the climate now. Yeah. Goodness. Yeah. That makes perfect sense. [00:18:00] Why, why it would be that way. Yeah. Huh.

[00:18:02] Luis Urrego: [00:18:02] So go on, brother Ben. So, so you, uh, at the, at this time, um, well, you, you, you received, you received the Holy ghost. Uh, and I liked what you said because you said something, you said something key, and you said you were very positive when

[00:18:18] Benjamin Norrod: [00:18:18] you went up there. Yes, absolutely.

[00:18:20] Luis Urrego: [00:18:20] How, how, how did you know for sure that you had received the Holy ghost? Because recently you gave a testimony and, uh. I thought it was really interesting because you knew for a fact that you had received the Holy ghost. And then the next day I believe, uh, there was an another altar call that was given and, uh, you didn’t go or something like that, something on that line because you knew that you, that God had given you the Holy ghost. Can you, can you elaborate

[00:18:44] Benjamin Norrod: [00:18:44] more on that? I’d be happy to. Yeah. It was the following year that that happened. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Uh, real quickly, this, this little boy. Um, the, the Hayden, my heart, and, and all of this. Well, after being mean to this kid, the day I received the Holy ghost, [00:19:00] I walk the all over my hands went straight in the air. I started weeping and all I could say was, I love you Jesus. I love you, Jesus. I love you Jesus. And please understand audience that’s listening. You know, I didn’t love anything at the time. I didn’t love it so. One thing that stood out to me was that sang those words, I love you, Jesus. That was big for me. And then when I kind of come to myself after being so, so struck with the Lord, this little boy had been mean to and had his arms wrapped around my waist the whole time. He had been praying for me that could say, you know, so, um. I, I walked out of there with a very clean feeling in my heart. There was nothing immediate about, okay, I’ve got the Holy ghost. Now I’ve received the seal of God. I didn’t look at it that way because quite honestly, I didn’t know those terms. I didn’t understand how the label, what had happened to me. All I knew is that God had done something and I knew that whatever it was, it was big. And, [00:20:00] and I. Loved it, and I, I felt like I had received exactly what I was wanting. I didn’t even know to call it the baptism of the Holy ghost until a few months later I heard a minister speaking about. Uh, what it was like to receive the Holy ghost and everything he was describing and happened to me and I went, yeah, that’s, that’s it. That’s what happened to me. Whatever this is. That’s, so that’s what you call it. In my mind, I’m talking as he’s preaching, so this is what you call it. So I got the Holy ghost. That’s what happened to me. You know, at this time, I mean, these are things that are, that are taking place that I, I didn’t even know how to label them. Um, w w with respect, you know, I went to a church that, that. Uh, just didn’t talk about these things, you know, and I love the people there and I would never want to say anything to put them in a bad light, but they just did discuss this stuff and it wasn’t really things that we understood at home too much. Uh, we knew that a costal Epistolic version of that, that there was a whole new version coming along and message terminology that had never been [00:21:00] discussed. So what happened to me the following year. Aye. Aye. And Le, and I’ll share this too, in the same year, just a, just a few short weeks after I received the Holy ghost, the Lord called me to preach and it was actually the way that it begun. I’ve had several people ask me through the years, a different young man, young preachers, you know, of all ages and all shapes and sizes it comes to, how did you know that you were supposed to preach at such young age? Well, I’ll say it like this. It began as a. Uh, uh, just a move from the Lord on my spirit that, that I felt him say, you need to preach. And that never let up. It tormented me actually. I mean, why go to bed? And that thing that I heard would navigate me through the day. Uh, I’d be sitting in church preachers that would be preaching and sermons will be coming to me so quickly. That I couldn’t keep up with what was going on. My mind would be racing. I, I’d write and try to write it down and I couldn’t keep up. [00:22:00] It was just such an overwhelming thing. Uh, when the Lord emphasized that I needed to preach that I could not get away from it. I mean, it, it was burning me up so bad. I get out in the, in what little woods we had there and my spot in Ohio and I’d preach squirrels. I’d wait till my mom and dad slipped out of the. House and I pulled a table over and had a pool. It made a pulpit out of it, and I’d stand there and preach for 30 minutes to nobody. I mean, it just burnt me up. I just couldn’t hardly, hardly hold it, this thing of preaching and just got ahold of me right away. And, um, I, uh, I just really knew whatever this was that was working on me. I just knew it was God. And I just followed that. And I just listened to the men of God describe it for me. And as they described it to me, then I began to understand what was happening to me. Um, so after a few months, okay, so this was happen, we’ll call it, this is the Holy ghost. Okay. I have got the Holy ghost. Some people ask me what happened? I’d say, well, I got the [00:23:00] Holy ghost. You know, I didn’t even realize at the time what that was. So the following year and that very same camp meeting, there was a, there was a brother that was really trying to. He was really doing M and a, and I know the man to this day. I know he’s a fantastic individuals, his precious brother. And um, he was doing everything he could to get every young man and young woman at that alter. If he could get a, if he could’ve got the pastors and the evangelists and whoever else at that alter that night, I think you’d have been satisfied. He was trying to get everybody saved and right elbow. I do respect that. I really appreciated it. But what was funny to me was I, I just. I knew that what had happened to me was permanent. It wasn’t something going away. And I was pretty well convinced that I had this, what they call the Holy ghost. And so this brother, but it sort of pulled in for people to receive the Holy ghost. I thought, well, yeah, wonderful. Praise God. You know? And so the few started empty [00:24:00] and out until I was literally like the only young man sitting in the Pew. All the other boys was at the alter. And, and it got so extreme with this brother. Now, if there’s anybody here, any body at all that needs the Holy ghost. He finally got out of the pulpit, walk way around, come right up in the aisle. He’s about maybe two foot from me and he’s just looking straight at me. You know, if anybody in here needs the Holy ghost, and I’m looking around on my shoulders of looking around my back. Yeah, man. Well that fellow needs to get there and get saved. Man, he needs to get what I got. You know, I realized they was talking to me, you know, so after I, after I kind of picked up on what was going on, I was just so dense, I guess. I don’t know, I just didn’t understand. He was talking about me. I figured I had the Holy ghost. I figured they knew I had the older goats, but you know, I learned later that, you know, not everybody gets that right away. And, um. I, I, I was listening, I’m preaching. And he went on [00:25:00] just Libby went back to the platform. He didn’t went on a little bit, and he just kept pounding away and, and, and the Lord just kind of moved on me. You know, you need to, um, try all things, test all things. And this was one of my first experiences with just, just trying to see what these ultra calls were all about. And, and I, I went up front and I thought, you know, I’m just going to yield. And just just see how these brothers react. And I went up front and I had them lay hands on me and I didn’t tell him what my need was. I didn’t say I had a need. They just immediately started praying that I’d received the Holy ghost and I get born again. Save this center boy, give him what he needs, God to save him from hell. And I mean, surely these men were probably praying as sincere as they knew how. But. What I wanted to see was where they’re going to be sensitive to the fact that, Hey, I was already saved. I already had received the Holy ghost, and what I needed was training in teaching concerning what I had. Not to go back to it all over again. And so as [00:26:00] I felt the Lord movement and their prayers, I just thought, well, the Bible said trial things. I didn’t know that much. I didn’t know much more than that, but I did know the Bible said test it all, and I’d heard, give it the word test my whole life. So I just let it a Holy ghost war hoop. And I went, woo, glory to God. And they started shouting. Yeah, that’s it. He’s got the Holy ghost in that. And I was born again. I looked back on that, the Louis, and I thank to myself. How deceived. Sometimes we are as preachers that we see people making emotional responses and we gauge that as being, okay, they got it now. But what I discovered in going on 29 years of ministry around the world, at least one time in my life, I have discovered that it is not what takes place at the alter that determines whether you got it or not. It’s what happens. And the days beyond that. It’s what that was in a person’s life, six months, a year, 10 years, 15 years down the road. Because what we are seeing now [00:27:00] in the message is we’re seeing people that have been embraced this truth for 35 plus years, 40 years, 50 years, and now because of questionable websites and suppose that failed prophecies and things like that, we’re seeing people are turning away. From the very truth that then, not even that, none of it preached it, but they’ve supported it. Mission work and evangelism and pastoring and whatever. More so it goes to prove to me that unless we have the real anchor, which pretty appropriate to be on the anchor app for broad pop capital, we want it more of an anchor than just the podcast night. That’s right. The real anchor that’s going to hold us through all of this because people are are falling away. Not because they haven’t had spirit touches and not because they didn’t go to the alter like I did, but they’re falling away because they’ve never really come to that reality. It’s never really settled to them like it didn’t me to say, you know, I’ve [00:28:00] got it. I don’t know if this is, but it’s, it’s mine. I’ve got it. And it’s a reminder, the story of Jack CO’s, mom, you remember that. She was so, so Jack gets the holder goes, right. He doesn’t even know what to call it himself. And so when she gets saved, the only thing she can say is, praise God. I got what Jack got. I got what Jack got. You know? So I think in that respect, you know, I think we all could learn a lesson from that, that it’s not about being able to label it. It’s not about being able to fit it with their quotes in the scriptures and to get all the doctrinal mechanics put together. It’s just about getting it and knowing you got it. Absolutely.

[00:28:39] Luis Urrego: [00:28:39] Yeah. I, that’s, so, that’s so a brother, but then you hit the nail on the head right there with that, because for me, um, that’s that. That’s would, the way I see it. It, you know, the Bible says, being born again. Yeah. You know, it’s a, it’s a continual process.

[00:28:57] Benjamin Norrod: [00:28:57] Yes, it is. Uh,

[00:28:59] Luis Urrego: [00:28:59] it, it’s, it’s [00:29:00] not like you received one, one experience one time and that’s it. You, it’s a relationship with Christ continues. You continue to, uh, continue for you to be heading up more, uh, higher and higher, of course, in the stature of a perfect man. Uh, and, and, and. To reach that headstone, you know, and I know where we’re, we’re talking about a more, uh, more and more complex, uh,

[00:29:25] Benjamin Norrod: [00:29:25] uh,

[00:29:27] Luis Urrego: [00:29:27] uh, terminology. You know, for maybe some of the young people, I’m know that they’ve probably heard what the headstone is and things like that, but it’s one thing to know it, but it’s another thing

[00:29:37] Benjamin Norrod: [00:29:37] to actually. Uh,

[00:29:39] Luis Urrego: [00:29:39] be part of it cause Jesus said, uh, if it’s, if it’s you and me, and I knew and asked what you will and, uh, it’s a relationship with Christ and, and, um, and so I think you’re, so, you’re so spot on with, with that, I guess of what your, of what your experience that you’ve seen in the last 29 years.

[00:29:58] Benjamin Norrod: [00:29:58] Yes, sir. Very well said, brother. [00:30:00] Very well said. I, I, I, and, you know, addressing, addressing some of these conflicts and things that we see. It it, it does disturb me that we have become a people of such gross terminology. Because what we’ve done is I, and I say, we please understand, uh, to the audience and, and those that will, will, you know, listen to this podcast. When I say we, I don’t necessarily mean everybody. But there is a population of us that followed us in time message that we have been very guilty, and I’ll put myself in with this too, because I’m sure I’ve been guilty for the years of, of assigning terminology to experiences, to experiences, just to kind of get a gauge of, okay, this, when you get it, this is what it’s called. This is what it looks like. What we’ve done is we’ve actually created more of a reformation. Then we’ve actually created reconciliation and [00:31:00] restoration and redemption. Because redemption doesn’t really mean. Okay. When I can check the boxes, now I’ve got it. Redemption is an experience that you have between you and the Lord, and it’s between you and God alone. Amen. I think that’s why we’ve had so many of the, um, the issues that have arose, uh, over the past little while with the believe the sign move with the CQ. The truth move. With different websites and the things that are coming up now that for the last several years have not only distracted preachers in the message, but it’s distracted. Many other people to come to a place to say, okay, well the message is just wrong, or the Brown was a false prophet and see, but part of my testimony is. It’s right in line with what we’re talking about. And if you’ll bear with me just a few minutes here. I

[00:31:55] Luis Urrego: [00:31:55] want to

[00:31:57] Benjamin Norrod: [00:31:57] thank you very much. I, I don’t want to sound like I’m veering [00:32:00] off course, but I, I, I want to address as part of my testimony, some of this we’re seeing, I, you know, we, we hear about the cloud and then the controversy is that, well, it was just rocket ship smoke, you know, made by a Thor missile and so forth like that. But when I was 12 years old. As I said, you know, during that time, the message was really beginning to kind of pick up for us young people. And the churches were really, you know, things were getting red off. Well, I was flying kites with my dad one day and, uh, some afternoon, I don’t remember exactly what day it was, but it was, um, I think it was around April or may, and it was real windy. And my dad used to love fly kites is one of his favorite pastimes. And he could hardly wait till a windy day to get out there. He ain’t go to the dollar store, anybody, you know, he buy 30 kites and they break half of my time. We got done flying him, but he just loved it. And we was out in just, just an open field, like as, as you do with kites and flying Cod somewhat more. And, and one of my kites have taken a nosedive is one of these little cheap. [00:33:00] You know, a family dollar or dollar general, one of these type things ever. What was on, I don’t even know if it was, it wasn’t dollar general, but it was one of those types of stores, you know, that you get a, a, a K Mart or something like that. And then things that hardly last, you know, five minutes. I’d have them up in the air, finally take me an hour to get it in the air. It would last five minutes and then, you know, boom, we’ve collapsed. And, uh, I used to get so frustrated with the little cheapy kites. Well, I, I was. I was stomping out there. I was just fuming, you know, I’d drop by that thing and nose dive on me about six times. And I had reached down to pick up the string, and when I turned around right above the trees was those seven angels and I, I knew. What they were, because my pastor at the time had had the picture on the wall by the pulpit and I’d studied every aspect of it I’d memorized. I’ve got a photographic memory by God’s grace, and I took pictures in my brain of every little wiggle and every little move of those seven angels and rod on the top of the trees. [00:34:00] I mean, it was right on top of the trees. Those seven angels hung up there. I don’t know that I would call it a vision. I don’t know what it was. All I know is I just looked right at it. And there it was right on top of the trees. And I, I had wondered about that experience for many, many years, and I told very, very few people about it because I didn’t want folks thinking, Oh, you know, there’s another one of these message preachers trying to make himself a prophet or some kind of an eighth day deal, or, you know, that that’s never been my intention of even sharing this. But now that the controversy is out. About whether it was a Thor missile, whether it was rather Brennan was, you know, it wasn’t there or it was just a a, as one man said, it was just brother brand’s enthusiasm about vision. I can say that when God allows you to see it, like he allowed me to see it. I don’t need quotes and I don’t need respectfully, respectfully, right? I don’t need the scriptures respectfully. I don’t need preachers. I don’t need [00:35:00] vindication. When that happens like that, nobody can tell me that it wasn’t that way because I saw it with my own eyes. Somebody could say I was delusional. You know, the, the, the leaders of this anti Branum move. They, they can, uh, they can say that I was just caught up in some kind of a psychological haze or a cloud if they want to, but I know what I saw and I know what it was. It wasn’t a cloud. It was too low to be a cloud. And it was right in front of my face and at home there for five minutes or more. Looking back on that now and not where you’re going back 30 years now, probably even a little longer than that really. And I see now why the Holy spirit allowed me to see that. Because here I am in 2019 almost 220 preaching a message that is being contradicted by so many people that were once messaged believers saying the cloud was just this or that. Well, you can tell other folks that, but you can’t tell me that [00:36:00] because I’ve seen it with my own eyes. At least I saw what the Lord showed me. So it touches back on what we’re saying about. The experience that you have with God. This message was vindicated to me, not because I was taught or raised in it. The message was vindicated to me by the Holy spirit interpreting the word to me. Just as God is his own interpreter and the Lord interpreted his word to me. How do I know I had the Holy ghost? Because he give it to me. I saw the very thing you talked about in the Bible and the message living out of me automatically. Things that I would not wants to, I’m not, I’m now doing and things I didn’t use to feel, I now feel and everything I’ve got. Here’s what the Bible is calling the Baptist and Holy ghost. So when a person gets this brother, I really feel like in my heart is very important for them to, to experience. And I don’t mean experiences, but they need to experience themselves. What this is all about. [00:37:00] My, my greatest fear. And I know part of this podcast that we were going to attempt to go into some of these issues like what God’s doing now and, and perhaps where the young people’s at now. And I really feel like this is an important aspect of this, that we, we, we need to understand that this message cannot be shoved down our neck and expected to believe it. If God doesn’t reveal it to you, you’ll never understand it. Absolutely. And it has to be revealed by the Holy spirit. Because if it’s not, then you’ll have to get any further with it.

[00:37:35] Luis Urrego: [00:37:35] Absolutely. Well, when, when, when the message or the word, because you know, the message came out from the word, it goes hand in hand and, and, and when, when that becomes a revelation to you, not just head knowledge. Then they send a ma. It’s going to make you, it’s going to put word on top of word on top of the word on top of word. It’s going to align more things for you. But the [00:38:00] key thing, the key thing is that people need to continue in the word member. How Jesus said, if you continue in my word, then are you my disciples? Indeed.

[00:38:08] Benjamin Norrod: [00:38:08] Absolutely.

[00:38:09] Luis Urrego: [00:38:09] You know, we know at the time when Jesus said that to the disciples, they didn’t have the Holy ghost. That’s Jesus, that Jesus had not died and resurrected, but it was when they went to the upper room and that three and a half year ministry that Jesus did, they had been preached to by Jesus. That word became alive and it, it, it, it, what did it cause Peter, it caused him to go out with boldness and it started building word on top of word and top of word and type of word where he started going back into job and, and uh, or back into, um. I forgot which book, which book it was, but he started bringing the word to the people. There’s a 3000 days. It hurt him. And, uh, and that’s one thing with, with the, that the Holy ghost, the Holy ghost will always continue to lead you to the word because that’s the only thing that the Holy ghost can feed off of that

[00:38:57] Benjamin Norrod: [00:38:57] brother. Absolutely. By the wall of all my heart. I [00:39:00] think that, um, touching back on the term experience says plural. For the Remsen book away with experiences as your plumb line because people can have visions and dreams and prophecies and uh, and all of that. I mean, even me seeing that, having a supernatural experience, seeing the cloud, I can’t use that as an experience whether I’m ready to go on the rapture or not. I can’t use that one moment in my life as, as my foundation. It’s a part, yeah. Of my walk with God. It is a significant place in my life that God revealed something very precious to me, that I’ve kept in my heart for many years. But I walk with God is a continual thing every day, putting one foot in front of another, like, you know, walking with God. Continue on trying to be pleasing to the Lord, surrendering to the Lord. And that in itself, the derive to continue doing that. Even when I may, as a human, say I can’t do anymore. I’m done. I give up. I quit. But yet, [00:40:00] as I’ve always used the expression, when I’m preaching, you know, I always say when I feel like I’m going to quit, the Holy spirit says to me, how can you quit something you never started? That’s right. And look back on my testimony and, and how I come to the Lord. I realize that it’s never been me holding onto him. Never at any time. He has always been the one. That put his hand on me and done something for me. And I haven’t always done like I should. I’ve made a bunch of mistakes and I’ve, you know, I’ve, I’ve never been 100% just exactly like I should be on all things. I’m, as anybody else’s. And I’m, I’ve made mistakes and I’ve, I’ve, I’ve been an error. I’ve, you know, I’ve solved things incorrectly and, but, you know, through all of that, I’m so grateful to the Lord Jesus for. Keeping his hand on me to not allow me to go too far into anything, and it seemed like I go one step beyond. He was always there to keep me from taking that next step that would have devastated me just completely, you know, destroyed my walk [00:41:00] with God. Just completely just annihilated it and yet for I would make that step. It’s like God threw everything in my pathway to say, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, Whoa, no, you’re going to go this way. Not that way. And I’m so thankful to the Holy spirit for that. It brings tears to my eyes. Even now, just thinking of how it was grace and how he’s done to know if I’d had my way about it, I sure would have messed all this up. But that is the key to being a Christian is letting go and letting God have his wonderful way. And I want to encourage the listeners to think on that remark and. In your own walk with God and where you are right now. I want to encourage you to really think about that because Christianity is not about what you do for God. It’s what you allow God to do for you. Amen. And that’s the real key to Christianity. Yeah.

[00:41:51] Luis Urrego: [00:41:51] That that’s all. And that’s one thing that I’ve always said that Christianity, religion, you know, which people have made this message. Just a religious, a [00:42:00] religious thing. Sure. Religion.

[00:42:01] Religion as what? As what man tries to do to get closer to God. But yes. . Is what God has done for you to get closer to you. He wants, he wants to draw closer to you. You know, H he’s the one who came here to earth and that for us and, and, and did these things for us. And, uh, now we just have to follow in this, in his

[00:42:22] Benjamin Norrod: [00:42:22] footsteps.

[00:42:24] Luis Urrego: [00:42:24] And brother Ben, do you, do you feel that, uh. You know, in your 29 years of experience, you know, preaching the gospel and going, traveling around the country, traveling around the world, do you feel that people now are, are getting, are getting the, the, um, what the message really is all about? Uh, do you feel that, that, that, that’s becoming more and more real now to the people that it’s not just about, just. Uh, shouting and screaming and knowing that God sent a prophet, which all that is important and you need that at some point in time, but now they’re getting into the [00:43:00] meat of the, of the, of the

[00:43:01] Benjamin Norrod: [00:43:01] message. Yeah. I feel like, I feel like we’re at a point in time where all of the doctrinal stuff, uh, if I could say it that way, is, is beginning to work itself out. To where, you know, the newest thing that will come along isn’t really going to be all that new of a thing. There’s been a lot of stuff exhausted. Uh, there was an old brother, he’s been gone for many years and now you’re sad. Been up the pyramid, down the pyramid, through the middle of the pyramid. I’ve been around that pyramid so many times. You know, I said, he said, I know everything there is know about that pyramid. Well, I mean, that’s kind of the last 60 years. Uh, you know, we’ve, we have, we have, as, as a people, we have really trekked through the message of the hour and made a lot of footprints on it. And I don’t think that there’s too many new things that could come along. Unless it’s just really something extreme that somebody has to pull out [00:44:00] of thin air to really get to. But you know, in our case now, there’s nothing new under the sun. I think that, I think the doctrinal stuff has really been declared the, the bad and the good for that matter. But I believe as far as the people go, I still see a great need for, uh, not teaching some much. I do see a need for that, but I see a need for, uh. More comprehension of what they’re being taught. I see that people are latching onto it. I believe they’re beginning to really catch the truth and catch where their place is and all of this. Um, I still think we have a long way to go in the message. I know this may be controversial to some of my brother, and they may disagree with me on this, but just based on my experiences, and these are mine, they can testify how they feel, but this is my way. I feel like that we have come far, but not nearly far enough. I still see people, I still have conversations. If you can imagine, I [00:45:00] still have conversations with people who’ve been a message 25 years that asked me, how do I know when I got the Holy ghost? Yeah. I mean, I, I, I’m speechless at such questions, you know, uh, uh, somebody come and ask me here just the other day, they, they made a remark about it. So when does the tribulation take place? Um. Is that before the rapture, after in this individual been in the message many years. And I thought, how do you not know? How do you not know these things? And I know it can be said that this is just individuals, but it’s not. It’s, it’s, there’s a, there’s a fairly large group of people spread out through my travels that I, I see, uh, that are saying these things.

[00:45:38] Luis Urrego: [00:45:38] Oh, believe me by the van. I’ve, I’ve experienced that too. You know, and these are like, for example, people that have been in the message for a long, long time. And they come and they ask me these questions as well. Yeah. Thinking, my goodness. I thought maybe you would have already have gone through that, you know?

[00:45:54] Benjamin Norrod: [00:45:54] Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.